Pathways with Amber Stitt

The Physician's Edition: Will your Group LTD Actually Pay You at Claim Time?

January 10, 2023 Amber Stitt
Pathways with Amber Stitt
The Physician's Edition: Will your Group LTD Actually Pay You at Claim Time?
Show Notes Transcript

In today's episode, Ethan and I discuss Disability Insurance Contracts that are available for you through work.

Often work plans have these disadvantages:

- Definition of Own Occupation isn't for your specialty; it is for any job! 
- True Own Occupation Defined
- Employer's coverage isn't portable
- Employers can change coverage on your annually
- Tiered coverage that is different per department depending on your position at work

Would you like to speak with Ethan?

Ethan's Contact Information:
Website: SeltzerLegal.com
Email: EAbramowitz@seltzerlegal.com
Phone: 215-735-4222

Articles for reference: 

https://www.seltzerlegal.com/blog/healthcare-professionals-mental-nervous-long-term-disability-claims-jumped-in-2020/

Amber 0:03

Today we welcome back Ethan Abramowitz, our trusted colleague who is a disability insurance attorney and associate at Seltzer & Associates. Just a quick introduction on Ethan for those who are just meeting him today in this episode. He is a disability insurance attorney who represents medical professionals, primarily physicians and dentists, but also has extensive experience with insurance defense work which is what he was doing prior to working in this specialty. So, Ethan, we appreciate your help and guidance today. Thank you for coming back. And we're going to talk about employer-paid plans, also known as group contracts. And so Ethan, we would love your advice on whether or not you think employee benefits typically pay at claim time given your experience. So we're looking forward to this as this is a common topic with most of our clients at MD disability quotes. So, Ethan, thanks again for being here. And let's jump right in. 

Ethan
Always a pleasure. And I think you know, we've talked in the past about the importance of individual disability products. And one of the things that we've touched on in those past discussions is the issues with long-term disability claims in employer-provided plans. And it's something that I know on your end you see on a daily basis with why do I need individual disability coverage from my employers providing us on my end, I see these products come up where clients have this subjective belief that they have this product from the employer, and it really provides a great benefit, but when you start whittling it down and looking at it, their subjective belief, their coverage is completely inconsistent with the objective coverage that's provided. And it really puts them in some difficult situations financially. So I think when we talk about this, the first thing we talk about is, you know, their coverage is an employer-provided benefit plan. So it's tied to this individual being employed with a specific provider. Some of these policies are portable or convertible, it's a conversation for another day. But the reality is, is that in this day and age, it's a rarity for someone to start off with employer one at the beginning of their career and end their career there. And oh, yeah, physicians really need to understand that the policy they have will disappear when they go from Company A to Company D. And one more reason why that's important as well. These policies do not contain medical underwriting. They do have pre-existing condition exclusions. And what that means is if I start with company A and have no medical issues I have covered on the group long-term plan and if I then switch to Company B, the policy will tip always has the language it says something analogous to if you have medical care treatment, three months prior to the effective date of this coverage that causes you to become disabled in 12 months or 24 months of your employment date. It is not covered for that medical condition.

Amber 3:13
Yeah, I think I'm used to seeing that 12-month provision I haven't seen 24 months but you're saying when you go through your open enrollment, you have that new group contract begin, if something happens between a certain period of time they may not have any coverage, right? So a pre-existing condition. The definition does vary. We've seen it as far as 24 months. But what is important to know is that if you are switching from one company, one employer to another, you potentially may have a medical condition that will be excluded until you meet a certain period of time, typically a year but as far as 24 months of employment and I have had clients come in here and sit down with a medical issue that is excluded. They're in essence unable to pursue a claim and they lost the ability to pursue a disability claim under their LTE policy, because within six months of switching from Company A to Company B at the end of the enrollment qualifications or the pre-existing condition language for the policy. This is a little different. We will see employers change coverage. I don't know if unlike the older policy will actually happen such as staying with you through life. Every year the employer has the ability to modify and change coverage. Now those situations preexisting condition issues don't typically exist when the new policy has continuity of coverage. But what does happen as we've seen and experienced clients have a pretty good Ltd policy.

Ethan 4:54
Year one year or two maybe the practices are doing as well as it wasn't looking to save money in one way or another and they cut that and we've seen that happen. The other thing that's important to notice is that the opposition doesn't have a say in their coverage. This is negotiated and procured by the importer. So on like an individual policy, where you dictate your coverage. You're at the mercy of your employer and a lot of employers will tear their coverage. So if you're in a large hospital group, they may have something for the department, that's the Cadillac.

Unknown 5:35
But for nonpartner associate physicians, it's a weaker definition. And then for nurses and everything else. So that's part of what people need to consider on the front end is control of their other coverage. Other issues that we typically see is the definition of own occupation as we talked about previously, all occupations and Umbrella definition within the individual policies, the True Own Occupation definition unable to provide good materials for these graduation doesn't affect your benefit. You're working with some other occupation. I have yet to come across a group's long-term disability policy. That contains a true own occupation definition. The policy is normally has something along the lines of unable to call material Saturdays of your occupation and unable to earn more than a threshold and if you are earning income, that income is deducted from your monthly benefit on like a true and occupation policy. With me, I'll see the word people will see Own Occupation. On the brochure, and the flyer, they don't usually get that group certificate, so they think they're okay. But when you're talking about true it's not the label of the title of the rider per se. I mean, it kind of is but it's true and in my world means there are no hidden provisions or ramifications behind the scenes. If This, Then That. True means it's nice and clean. There's no offsetting of income or other there's a whole you know, provisions in sections I've seen in these group contracts but I'm correct in thinking that way. Would you agree that the truth?

I think for the audience because Guardian called their rider Tue Own Occupation, but in general, these own occupation writers do work similarly versus just saying Oh, knock in a work plan that has no underwriting and it's for everybody. I think that throws people off. Like I'll be okay.

Unknown 7:41
Another thing too is how long the roof contracts last for if you go on claim, traditionally great question and term of art varies. Now we're both in this industry on different levels, or different sides of it. But the reality is that I use times generally when I say Taranaki may be regular op definition and other policy. But it's something that's your point. If you can't work in your occupation, you get your benefit, regardless of your ability to work and some of the patients and procedures that we've seen modified on occupation definitions but we'll avoid that topic right now. What happens with these policies is oftentimes if you're not at the highest tier that's offered, even if you have the bone off, not a true Al Anon, or Red Rock definition, but the definition of a single long-term disability. There's a 24-month limitation on that coverage, where men shift any gainful occupation. So there are a lot of physicians out there that think they have a tool one or two regular policies, but it's not it's a watered down what we refer to as a relation to earning policy.

Unknown 8:53
But also as this hidden 24-month limitation in the Own Occupation coverage reports, which is to any gainful occupation, and to a point when people get into plans from the employer, they get the summary and description or just an average age, and most even maximum benefit period, to age 65. To retirement age. A lot of these clients have especially lower tier plans that have limitations on specific medical conditions, any form of limitations or mental nervous, or subjective plans, musculoskeletal claims, and things like that, that again, the devils in the detail. So while it may look as though you have a policy that will pay out to age 67 for certain medical conditions it may be excluded or limited to 24 months. And that's where we got into the plan language actually matters.

Unknown 9:47
I think the other thing that we've talked about that's really important is the definition of covered earnings in an individual disability policy. Your monthly benefits are specified and it's on the front page of the amount along with long-term disability plans. It's normally 60% of covered monthly earnings to a max of $10,000 and nearly every position of that cow is to think they have a $10,000 month on average will talk about them up so well often, unless it's been negotiated by the employer, the bonus comp

Unknown 10:26
distributions that's excluded. So yeah, so I know we'll talk about we have a case that we'll discuss in this episode, but the income I mean, you're touching on it a little bit here.

Unknown 10:39
It's not always bonus income that qualifies as income when they're looking at the percentages. So we could talk about that now or maybe put a pause on that but it's not always what people think. It's really I mean, they've got to read this in the policy. It's normally you've got your spec page that spells out in a nice coverage where you think you've got 60% and Max 20,000 through age 67, or whatever the maximum period is but then I'll say other corporate earnings and power earnings more often say your base salary, excluding expert calm and bonus.

Unknown 11:20
And in that, as we'll discuss a lot of doctors have a base salary where you draw the partners Senate and then a production base, whether it's a distribution of profit or production base bonus that kicks in, and we'll talk about but that has a significant effect on positions and what they're eligible for, for the monthly benefit. A couple of other ways I know that, Oh, I'm sorry. I know that some of the underwriters have said in individual plans that someone owns, they might go back two years and look at the tax returns for two years, or they're pulling the CPT codes and pulling our views and looking at the big picture. Group contract. I'm not going to do that. From what you're saying this is a conversation that could probably take another hour but to your point. It's going to be based on earnings as defined in the policy and that's to calculate the benefit for individuals with disability plans when they do the analysis of prior market earnings. That's really to set the litmus test for residual disability.

Unknown 12:27
So this is what they used to calculate the benefit. And the other thing that kind of trips people up is that income may fluctuate as well. So one year they may have a good year. The next year I'm COVID certain problems.

Unknown 12:49
So there were three months where they didn't get recorded income and certain companies play games. While the pre-disability earnings for when it was because it's looking at some low fat and time and definitions. No Gosh, that could be a father episode wouldn't be but typically it's your income immediately harder due to disability. Some will go into debt and define it further and provide more clarification and a federal tool for maximizing what it is. But in my humble opinion, these products are really set up to minimize liability for the company and find ways to squeeze the benefit down versus finding ways to maximize that we'll talk about it when I go through a couple of other issues. But the other components that I think really resonate through these tax ability that this is a if you're not paying for post-tax dollars, we're having set that up. It's subject to tax liability even we gonna I'm gonna say there have been times you got your city wage tax, you could have your state income tax and on federal income tax at the Asheville.

Unknown 13:58
You mentioned the production cost there Ethan, I don't think people think about the other layers of the taxation that you're mentioning because I think most people assume ordinary income tax and that's it.

Unknown 14:11
Yeah, I mean, it depends on where you live.

Unknown 14:15
But the economy is subject to additional taxation and not a lot of CPA sort of tax advisers here.

Unknown 14:24
that disclaimer out the losers along with talking about a CPA. I'm not qualified to give tax advice. But tax liability is a major issue that comes up with these products. And we'll talk about that as well. You mentioned a second ago about production and CPT codes. And what's important is in an individual disability policy. The company is as the occupation is performed by you. So they really have to look at what even Abramowitz is doing as a surgeon day in and day out and how that overlaps with my medical condition with group policy, there's a national economy definition.

Unknown 15:05
This means is they use antiquated and outdated definitions and a visionary lab page or title is easier to use helping works just in general definitions, but we'll look at the assertion level of either right or a sedentary occupation and really not do a deep dive into whether or not I can do specific procedures that I was doing and we've seen these companies rely on that to try and challenge liability so the occupation I'm sorry, like an old guidebook, they just don't. It's not an exertion level, how it's done on the national economy, not how you and I are generating our income day in and day out.

Unknown 15:53
So an example of that would be if I was a surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon performed performing a specific type of procedure that a handful of doctors perform in a country having a lot of fun with that procedure anymore, but still do with a P IC medicine, orthopedic surgery, right? Just not that specific procedure that literally is the lifeblood of my income. They'll say I'm not disabled from practicing as an orthopedic surgeon. So it's a watered-down definition.

Unknown 16:23
Another problem that we see with these products is that because the employee benefits get sucked into ERISA, which is a federal statute that governs benefits claims were recorded and provided by the client or received in the confines of this means something that is traditional contract law and places it into an administrative claims process. And I don't want to talk for hours about our list of issues with tourism, but the reality is, is that the burden of proof is different than the individual that is more valuable to the insurance companies. The insurance company, you are more tied in on deadlines. Where individual disability payments may take because a couple of months ago information and you've seen LTE claims if you don't have the information in important five days, they'll close the claim law and reopen it.

Unknown 17:20
The other problem is when claims are denied. With an individual disability claim you've got options when new claims are denied. You can appeal it and submit additional information explaining why the company is wrong we work with our clients on that on shopping litigation with holistic complaints North wire to find the ministry of appeal within 180 days of the claim denial.

Unknown 17:41
And what that means is you have 180 days to tell the company why they're wrong. Why more often than not the doctors do this on their own, say insurance company? You're evil, you're wrong. And I'm appealing versus Oh, I can see that happening all day long. It's more of a purse. I think with someone helping like like yourself, you're gonna take the business approach, cross all the t's dot all the I's and just get them what they need and within the timeframes. I can't imagine people can read through all this and know all the pieces of the steps that are required of them. I can see that being a huge problem. When you're dealing with an ERISA claim denial, you've got 180 days to appeal your claim. And if you don't get updated medical objective documentation to be extended to get subject to the medical outlining why the company has reviewed as wrong inefficiencies in the review and times administration and outline that and submit that and just simply program without supplementing then once you submit the appeal and accompany them as a total we have 45 days with an extended to 90 to come back with an appellate review. If they are called Return dealing with a claim denial, the administrative record is closed. So picture a banker's box with information on everything you've submitted everything the company has reviewed, and the positions that they're there, the rationale for the position, that's close. And then once that's closed, your only option, if they've upheld or denied, is to litigate in federal court under ERISA that litigated out there even people are sick doing this or not. You and I on a busy day, grab our computer let's go through let's click the document call.

Unknown 19:29
These people are disabled so often they're probably either needing help from a spouse or another person, not just an attorney. But this can't be easy if you're sick or injured or you know

Unknown 19:47
the company telling you that you're not disabled, and you can work now you've also been out of work for whatever period of time it's up to them to reach the claim denial for your appeal, then to a traditional plan to try and there should be months or even a year or more where you're not getting income. So the goal is to deny the appeal workup as quickly as possible. With as much information as possible during the overtime appointment. I'll put it not then you have to litigate. And when you're litigating, it's what was submitted that conflicts with the court Only in rare circumstances will they allow limited additional discovery. So the courts going to look at that box, but information and the arguments presented in locations as contained in there and you're not able to supplement it in rare circumstances and promotion and argue the point that you shouldn't be entitled to but under limited circumstances are you allowed to present additional information outside of pure what we call in the supreme file. The other problem is no as you guys were down just was going to take you through the big stick that the orders had when insurance companies do courageous things to keep them alive. The worst thing that happens to insurance companies when they were already in our claim enforcement issues, they can put you back on it. Maybe they have to pay charter schools

Unknown 21:11
don't quote me and say we agree with the company to do this wrong.

Unknown 21:17
The Commission says in the current administration and we're going to talk to them to reimburse for your beauty information based on the issues that we've identified when it comes to this insurance company taking a look at I'm gonna pause that I think if we go down the truth issues or maybe some of the cases and it's an hour-long conversation on the show, yeah, that's not a hurdle or barriers as with individual products.

Unknown 21:46
That's the takeaway there.

Unknown 21:49
It's set up where again, the plaintiff is really or the claimant is operating from a position of weakness that is already set up in a disadvantaged state.

Unknown 21:59
We talked about a second ago misunderstanding that your maximum benefit period, and how a lot of these policies are set up with limitations.

Unknown 22:12
I think the most common Well, Scott and I were talking about one of his clients that making 1.2 million with a base salary of 75,000 and upon a review, not disabled luckily but upon a review this client was assuming he had so much more coverage than 60% of the 75,000 or whatever the story was, but his details of the group on the group side he thought he was all set with his group coverage.

Unknown 22:44
No, and so on that in a second but what I said a minute ago, what do you think will be the benefit down is what we were just talking about? One of the Commonwealth in earnings. And then the other thing is limitations on certain medical conditions specifically mental nervous, but we also see other watered-down policies that have musculoskeletal but then there's also every one of these policies. There are long-term disability policies provided by the employer. It's other income or deductible sources of income. And within I could see the most common is Social Security disability, workman's comp, disability professional pension benefits provided by the border, and all of these in that specific provision are dollar-for-dollar offsets. The other thing was what about dependent income? I think I see that in California. So in states that have state disability, that's an offset as well, so they will require me to file for disability or for social securing disability, even if you're not totally disabled from working in another occupation. If you're turning to sample marketing, your occupation and your eyeballs are not gainfully employed.

Unknown 23:57
They require you to apply for Social Security and jump through not only a claim submission, but it will say you have to appeal to the maximum degree that we see necessary. I've yet to have a copy to say while the client is totally disabled from working in your occupation and not working in another occupation, that they don't have to take it to the hearing stage. To your point, if you are on social insurance, and you qualify, it's $1 for a dollar offset. Now, if you have dependents or spousal benefits that are attributed to you and your disability, that's a further reduction in the monthly benefit. So what that means is if you've got a disability back from your long-term plan is $10,000 A month and a $2,500 a month disability, social security disability benefit. They dropped me for the insurance company drops their liability 7500 and supplement that $2,500 You're getting from Social Security. We do have clients that have a long-term disability plan that is nontaxable. We're setting up the right way, but the offsets still kicked in. So they're there $10,000 month benefit from the insurance company that was nontaxable is now $7500 and the Social Security benefit is 2500. It is taxable. So not only are they losing the $2500 That's a disability company working for hand. They're getting 2500 under Social Security, but they're not getting all of that and they don't make up the tax liability on the on the long-term disability. So it's just these ticky-tacky Little things and we have certain clients that are younger, they got multiple kids.

Unknown 25:37
And those dependent benefits also will further knock down that disability.

Unknown 25:44
Wow, we talked about the past. Interesting yes I can give you a really good case study that kind of ties in how awful these products can be for clients that are physicians that don't truly understand what they have in front of them. And I was working with a client a few years ago on this policy to not have a 24-month limitation than the own occupation coverage. For the client when it did it. I was adamant that he had a $10,000 a month but that provided him with $120,000 a year in disability comp.

Unknown 26:23
discussed his earnings he had a hosting come up to 150 1000. His base salary is 150,000 $100,000 annual production base bonus is the policy read that his coverage was 60% of his covered monthly earnings up to a maximum of 10,000.

Unknown 26:46
His simple math was 250,000 divided by 12 provides an average monthly income of $20,830 50% of that

Unknown 26:58
provides a monthly benefit of 12 5500 12,500 is greater than 10,000. Great, he's got the $ 10,000-month benefit. This individual is also planning that you know if you needed to, you would have Social Security on top of that. But if this individual didn't understand the definition of covered monthly earnings, they didn't understand how other than other income benefits factored into the bank calculation. Normally just understand the tax liability and how that is factored into it.

Unknown 27:30
So with this client, only $150,000 in his income was covered.

Unknown 27:41
What did he do for work?

Unknown 27:44
He was an internal medicine physician.

Unknown 27:51
So the $100,000 production base bonus wasn't factored in.

Unknown 27:58
Which ended up reducing this benefit from $10,000 a month to $7,500 a month.

Unknown 28:08
This was was the contract set up for the tax. How is this when we get to that in a second? So just now just by using simple math.

Unknown 28:22
You know 150,000 divided by 12 is sort of 60% of that is somebody 500 a month. So he thought it was 230 it wasn't it was only 150 and that put him down from his anticipated $ 10,000-month benefit was suddenly piled on landmark benefit, which in essence results in a $30,000 a year miscalculation of what his policy provides. Yeah.

Unknown 28:54
The next issue we're getting to was other income benefits and social security we talked about a minute ago, he was eligible for Social Security to apply for Social Security and was eligible for $2,500 a lot of security benefits.

Unknown 29:12
So that men turkeys $10,000 month benefit like he was going to receive the last point 500 A month from the miscalculation of carbon Mafate earnings and further reduce it by $2,500 a month because of a security offset just because of a misunderstanding the other income benefit and the calculation of cover monthly earnings. His subjective belief of $120,000 and you're coming from the insurance company is now down to $60,000 or $5,000 a month. And as you're just getting into tax liability, it was a taxable benefit.

Unknown 29:50
This individual fell into I believe it was a 33% tax bracket which in essence brought his benefit down even further. So he ended up with tax liability that hit the 5000 I'm sorry for 5000 and then left him with the net monthly benefit of $3,250 A month $39,000 A year by allies standing is the definition of covered monthly earnings, the effects of other income benefits. And tax liability. There was a 61% discrepancy in his understanding of what his coverage was and what his benefit would actually be.

Unknown 30:47
And I mean, we have to fund retirement with these benefits to

Unknown 30:55
the air left alone with this client devastated. I mean significant financial hardship resulting from this case and how to sell this house to oh my goodness, that again you never want to have to rely on your disability coverage.

Unknown 31:16
Things you know sometimes people start interrupting you either some people only qualify for a five-year benefit period. Sometimes their health will not allow them this full benefit on the private side when I help people and they question why do I still want this if it only pays for 60 months, as the example you just provided. If there's only five year benefit period that is still giving someone an exit strategy if they do have to sell their home. Whatever the story is, there's at least some game plan to help me work with a number of clients that have had those policies. And it's been a monopoly. And they may have that policy on top of the long-term disability policy as well. So it's not as though it's one or the other. It's they have what I refer to as a limited period or an occupation policy.

Unknown 32:09
That six month is better than nothing. Make sure you have that product, even though it's not through age 65 But also if it's a diaper becomes disabled at age 65 or 62, or 63. They still have the five-year benefit window, the only people that really would have to scratch for our situation where you know that policy is worse off than another policy would be if it only gets disabled when you're 40 or 45 or before age 60.

Unknown 32:40
But again, is better than not having something at least you have that five years of protection.

Unknown 32:48
So if you go back to the internal medicine physician, yeah 30 to 50. Net if they had a five year even just a five-year benefit period.

Unknown 32:56
If they could work in any other job 30 to 50 would go away.

Unknown 33:02
But at least they'd have their five-year benefit period.

Unknown 33:06
But if they couldn't do anything at all, they at least have a combination of the two.

Unknown 33:11
They could try to figure out that transition with the selling of the home and probably have a little bit more time to just make some solid decisions moving forward. You know, if you play that out and you're looking at strategizing for financial security, something is better than nothing with respect to an individual disability covered. So again, if it's only it's only eligible for a five-year plan, or it may be a five year own automated change to an in-game plot and the definition modifies but there are other policies that are five years only. And then cover jets, the capex with having that for that five-year period of time is crucial because it provides you additional time to have the income from the individual policy, the income from the group long-term disability policy, and to figure out how best to move forward in life. The client that I was dealing with was, you know, significantly impaired and wasn't able to work in some other occupation. That in this hypothetical, if the person is totally disabled coming on occupation, with a five year plan, they may be able to go do some extra work or academia or some other thing that generates an income. That's not going to affect your individual plan. So building an additional revenue stream and financial planning for the future with the family. Yes, if they're on long-term as well. And again, it's different than the pattern we're talking about because Social Security is not in play. But you know, we then are with the group plan and offset for the earnings but still are getting 100% of the individual benefit. They're getting their income, the LTE still kind of softens. I mean at least have their agreement when trying to navigate their financial future and trying to make especially if they're in their late 30s, or early 40s. They're gonna throw up 50 They have been taught at least five years to try and find a way to manage the finances in the future.

Unknown 35:14
Well, isn't I think this is super helpful to paint the picture in my pathways to Peak Performance Series. I talk a lot about taking action early focusing on setting goals based on your personality type. And really, I've mentioned this to you before taking proactive steps versus having to be reactive and so it's not just about insurance, purchasing insurance. I think there's a lot we can do with our time as individuals family members and business owners to really audit some of the basics that we have, what policies we have, and really go through the steps every year talking with independent brokers that have a plethora of products to talk to you about to then confirm, you know, or you know, really audit that policy and see if there's anything else that needs to be enhanced or added on or maybe it's just there are new needs and new insurance that might need to be there but how do you know unless you sit down and go through these and open enrollment is a perfect time if you're a business owner, you really don't have that if you're not that big of a business you can still even sit down with a basic spreadsheet and go through where's my account numbers, who is the beneficiary? All of that is so important and when I talk with people of that, all ages, even the most successful people don't have this done. Typically they'll admit to me, gosh, I'm 60 and I actually need to put some of that together and we're talking some of the basic stuff. So I always say that's the easiest way to get. Get it, sit down on a weekend, get everything laid out what's missing, because if you're missing something you can start requesting and then meet with your advisors and the people that can help you review things. And then if they need an attorney to help them through a process, you'll know and you'll know what pieces are missing. And so I think it's really important to spend that time and you got to take the time in advance

Unknown 37:09
whether it's a homeowner's life, I feel like everyone thinks they understand why I die it pays. But other complicated policies completely respect what can be worked out and why whole life is not an internal return to two needs. That's not for me. I'm not a life insurance person. But the reality is, I always say you don't want to be in the middle of a hurricane. While the floodwaters are approaching your doorstep and realize that your policy doesn't cover flood insurance.

Unknown 37:39
And rain. Yeah, I'm super passionate about that and helping people it's not just about gosh, we need more insurance. It's really, you might maybe you don't but how do you know unless you take the time to walk through everything? And I think it's on an annual basis. You just have to do diligence for yourself. And I think it takes some stress off. We're always looking for ways to have less stress and more resilience. You never know a pandemic family. You're out on maternity leave whatever the story is. If you really build in some of those basics, it can be so helpful. I think people are always focused on car insurance and homeowners average cars 30 to $50,000. And people are so focused on how do I have an entry versus their occupation and their income stream which over the White House for positions is known as a dollar and being so focused on a but not taking the time to sit back and understand or some that there is a probability 25 for some probability, if not more than maybe partially or totally disabled even for a closed period. of time. And understanding how these products work and whether coverages and trying to work that into your financial security plan and making sure that they're not a situation like my client was the example I do it's that's why I tried to do this. I really appreciate your time because helping people on the front end and trying to spread the word on the front end of the importance of these products and understanding hopefully will mitigate and avoid issues when I see people walk in my door and need to go out on the plane and make the right products. They have what they subjectively thought they had winded up with what stopped a minimum of four-quarters of the policy so thank you for everything you do.

Unknown 39:25
Thanks, Ethan, and I can't wait for the next episode together. So really appreciate the time today and diving deep into this and unfortunate stories, but I think the stories make it real, and hopefully that'll help our audience be more proactive starting today. So thank you so much. Happy to have you, as always, take care.

Thank you for listening!